LIFE RELIGION FAMILY

a place to come and discuss in peace, things of religion, life, and families

Contemporary Secular or Relativistic Morality

Posted by tawodi on April 5, 2012


This is from the Military,com forums, where I regularly contribute to the exchanges there between active service members and Veterans who participate.

When I started this thread I fully expected to meet with a storm of resistance. Well I haven’t really and those that disagree seem to be holding their fire so far, as perhaps they research their responses.

I applaud them for that, as it is, as it should be, for a discussion to proceed so as to approach a concensus. Not that there will ever really BE a concensus as too many variables exist to do so….we, none of us, myself included, can convince others we have an answer much less all the answers, to either side of the question.

Now I will proceed to perhaps the pre-eminent of those lauded by atheists and agnostics, and others, who attempt to refute the connections to humanity and the consideration of linkage between morals and conscience. Dr. Richard Dawkins.

In 2006 he published a treatise that purported to present the “scientific argument” against free will and personal responsibility.

In his treatise he surmised that mankind was strictly a product of our environmental conditions in which we were raised by our parents and the place, family framework, social structure and surrounding social environment.

Now this weighty tome was quite the read,  if you lack a brain,  because the whole thing is flawed by positing the argument that it did.  I for one,  being living proof of that flaw and so, damned near, is most of humanity in the modern world especially here in America.

Why? Well since the entire theory posits that we will be so heavily influenced by our prior experiences we are incapable of changing ourselves or our surroundings by an exercise of free will.

In point of fact this publication also went so far as to proclaim with great fanfare among the intelligentsia of the liberal elite, that free will not only didn’t exist, but that it was impossible….FOR…… IT TO EXIST!

Now when you begin to examine the flaws and failures of this modern society we live in
You MUST consider,  that the modern liberal Psychiatric community and that of the Psychological associations agree almost to a person that this is so. Beginning with good old Sigmund Freud,  Jungian theories and so many others,  if you want to know who go look it up yourself, I ’haven’t the time ! In fact Dawkins even made these following statements in this tome of intelligent comments, which I quote for your edification. Don’t thank me, too many people take this man seriously!

1. “Doesn’t a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the human nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility?”

2. Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused’s physiology, heredity and environment.”

3. Dawkins even made the statement that…and I quote once again, “ Isn’t the murderer or rapist just a machine with a defective part?”

Now how to put this in perspective? First you must understand I may be guilty of condensing it just a smidgeon! Trust me,  there was a whole lot more verbiage and bluster and quite frankly, bloviating,  to cover any apparent errors in judgement or need I say….reasoning?

How can I get you to grasp my meaning but by anology. You know I love them!

You are driving your car to somewhere….it breaks down…..you step from the vehicle with an iron bar and begin beating the car with it!!

This what Dawkins and others are suggesting! There is no point to punishing people for their crimes…THEY HAD NO CHOICE!! They’ve got a bad transmission…or something!

Now so you can understand further,  let us go back in time to the Menedez Brother’s trial for the double murder of their mother and father. If the memory is fuzzy I will clear it for you,  then you can remember your disbelief and rage at the verdict.

ENTER; The frizzy headed blond ( blond….?  is there a joke here?) no, unfortunately there is not. I certainly wish I could be more emphatic, but you can only do so much with italics!

She was the one hold out on the Jury, which caused the Judge to declare a mistrial. In front of the cameras she Quite emotionally stated……” I could NOT vote for conviction!” “They are ORPHANS!”

I saw it,  most of you saw it,  it was all over television for days, remember? Well I certainly do. How about the O.J. trial? There has never been a trial presented with so much clear and damning evidence presented in modern America as that one…..the verdict? Not guilty.

Do you now begin to see what happens when everybodies looking for a pass! This is the world we live in now.

Now are there humans with little or even NO…. conscience? You bet the pants hanger behind you there are!  BUT, do they get a pass to continue to prey on humanity because they’ve got “bad parts” Or do we lock them up and throw away the ROOM if we have to…. to protect others…. never MIND punishment…Or even worse….. correction.

No Prison ever corrected anyone ever! It only “educated them that if they did that or some thing worse there would be a penalty for it…WHY? Because WE as a society SAID SO…….THAT”S….. WHY!! Some things are right…. somethings are wrong….CHOOSE WISELY…….sound familiar? It should.

So…to surmise what does all this mean. Well they mean on the serious side that the denial of free will is neither scientific nor sensible. One may say with all seriousness that science is,  that science that depends on cause and effect to be understood….. as science!

The study of conscience is far more difficult, in that it consists of minutia so small, over so long a time, as to be virtually indecipherable even with a computer. We can study the squiggles on an E.E.G. chart but to decipher what they mean, except in the physical aspects of them, is impossible! We cannot read the squiggles with out the patient telling us what they were thinking! This is also irrefutable.

To suggest that conscience is from the physical is ludicrous in the extreme….Wanna know why….not even you some times know why you “did” something! So explain to me how is THAT possible if it’s all physical. And yes I know about the lizard brain…..and it’s no frigging excuse for your actions except in times of almost fatal stress and reaction!
Times of passion don’t cut it in my book I ALWAYS knew what I was doing no matter how Pzzzd I was!!  What stopped me from acting,  was the knowledge of the consequences, to me, the focus of the anger, (which isn’t always another person) or to my family. Threaten them or me physically then it didn’t matter to me, you’re going down and then we might discuss further developments! My conscience was engaged every second of the confrontation and you’d better believe I knew it! So I refuse to buy the cheap crap excuses we hear every day from these fools that have brought this upon us and insist in forcing us to swallow it .

Free will A modest scientist would immediately concede that science says nothing at all about free will as a spirituality, anymore than it can deny the existence of God.
A materialistic or mechanistic view of the universe that leaves no room for the possibility of spiritual realities, is not a scientific one at all but a philosophical one. There is nothing scientific about denying that possibility.

Now we come to the chicken or the egg part of the discussion. Which came first…conscience or free will.

Well Theologically you MUST have conscience….. to HAVE free will! That is what your conscience is…. FOR! To allow you to choose. The right from the wrong…simple ain’t it…till you use it to solve real life problems THAT presents the difficulties I mentioned before and need not be restated here. Why do you NEED to be able to choose? Well if you have no choice then you DON’T have free will do you? Again Theologically speaking The first commandment (per Jesus) IS…”Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your spirit, all your mind and all your strength”

Without free will there is no love.  There can not be with no choice in the matter. In the case of no choice why would you even need a mind! You would not, everything would be rote repetition of previous experience. I have seen all the arguments about birds build nests and yes they do and according to their species they all build them somewhat differently don’t they…..Why don’t doves all build different KINDS of nests to support that argument. Why don’t beavers build condominiums….. instead of dams with sticks and mud…yeah they’er pretty good dams….. but not much good for anything else are they? That is NOT creation of the new is it? It is rote learned repetition as that is all they are capable of.

And so it is with free will and conscience with out one there is no need of the other.

So here’s the deal folks! You can continue to live with your scientific theories as your sole form of accepting you existence….I will live with my spirituality as mine.

You can NOT prove quite a bit of what you present most times, neither can I at least to you who have never experienced the spiritual in a believable, to you, way.

Be well friends…………..Rev Bruce………………….Tawodi

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